On doms, tops, partner’s of submissives, rapists, whatevs

The “feminist” analysis of BDSM is the main reason I became a radical feminist.  Women talking about how they love being spanked, etc, etc, but getting all defensive (i’m still FEMINIST GOSH SEX-POLICING) just got old.  Especially because I said the same thing-without the feminist part-when I was with glenn.  This was high school, what are supposed to be the best years of my life.  With him, I *liked* kinky stuff.

After he first raped me, I stayed with him for two a half years.  I repressed what he did and continued to have “consensual sex” with him.   I’d suggest kinky stuff, he’d suggest kinky stuff, if I was a little hesitant I might say so.  But I always did in the end.   He bragged to his friends I liked it.  I orgasmed a lot-so I liked it, right?  He loved me.  I loved him.  If you asked me about our sex?  I enjoyed it.  Really did, yes I’m sure.  Yeah, I’m just naturally submissive and a nympho.  Nothing makes you feel more desired than being someone’s sextoy.

It’s always about the woman’s desire.  What if SHE consents, what if she ASKS to be spanked, to be bound, to be “raped” in a roleplay, to dress up like a little girl.  Fine, whatever.  I know women can like those things.  I did myself.  We may disagree why they do (I say brainwashing AKA socialization, they say natural/choice), but I know women can like them.

But their partner, the man-what about him?  Like with the “sex worker” debates, the men are made invisible by the “sex-positives.”  For a couple to have “sex” like this, he’s has to do his part.  And he gets turned on by hitting you, tying you up, “fake” raping you, and pretending you’re a little girl.  For a woman to “choose” to be tied up and whipped, someone has to do the whipping. For you to fulfill your desire to be hurt, someone has to like hurting you.   You like being helpless and feeling like he could do whatever he wants to you, giving up any control.  He likes you being helpless, feeling like he could do anything to you, raping you, and he gets off on having total control.

Do I blame submissives and masochists, whether they’re men or women?  No, so long as they don’t act like BDSM is the most progressive sex ever,  avoid the whole “CHOICECHOICE” bullshit and acknowledge that abused women say use the same defenses.

Do I blame dominants, masters, tops, and sadists?   Hell yes.  They get off on pain– specifically, women’s pain.  That’s misogyny.  They have the mentality of a rapist and abuser.  They want control and your submission.

He might say he only likes it because you “consent” to it and like it.  But you can’t know that.  Considering how often men rape, and especially how often it occurs in relationships– enjoying control over you, even if it’s just “pretend,” is a huge red flag.   Kids don’t play pretend to imagine something they wouldn’t actually enjoy, or be someone they don’t like.   They argue to be the main character or the character with the strongest powers.  Most would probably WANT to be a superhero or have magical powers and shit.  The same applies to dominant men and what they “pretend” in the bedroom: if they don’t already have control, they want it.

Even if what he is saying is true, why would he like that you enjoy those things?  Why would he like you to enjoy being hurt and degraded?  The short answer is to make you a slut and other you, but I’ll elaborate on that more later.

PS: Never get on the pill.  Coming OFF of it is a trainwreck.  I had only a bit of nausea when I first started it, but now I’m having a shit ton of cramps, mood swings, boob soreness and bleeding like a hurricane.  Whatever the means.  Fuck.

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22 responses to “On doms, tops, partner’s of submissives, rapists, whatevs

  1. I really hope that you get completely well. I admire your strenght. We women in this part of the world use to almost adore men, like they are gods or something. Thanks to globalisation one must said that we are embracing change, but is not for all. The ones that aren’t lucky to get informed, to get to know current events, research, and so on, those women still in the shadows. I hope that I would said in the Shadow of the Almighty, but is not like that. Usually is people from inner towns, without even a pc, where others come and make worse for them to grow. I admire women like you that are brave to speak about crazy stuff like this. I hope that your health would be recovered completely. May God bless you and give you some fun time and rest with your people. You deserve it!
    ~Great Love to you,
    Mirian from peelingtheorange.

  2. I just came here from femonade, and — this. This. This is what I’ve been trying to say about BDSM for. fucking. ever.

    It’s so self-evident to me that I often forget that it isn’t to other people.

    Recently over at Nine Deuce’s (Rage Against the Man-Chine) I got involved in a “kink” pile-on where I tried to say this and got a lot of “kinky” women up in arms about “I don’t have to justify myself to you!!1!!” One even asked if I’d ever had an orgasm. So, so, so triggering. So abusive. So much bullshit.

    I wish I’d seen this then, so I could have looked at it whenever I started to think I was crazy or wrong.
    So thanks for writing it.

  3. @joy

    I’m pretty sure I read that same thread. It was so triggering for me too. I always feel crazy because of the way they argue. Actually, all of them are for me. Thinking about it this way, where the dude’s desires are a problem whether or not she “wants it,” helped me a lot. I’m glad it helped you too. 😀

  4. “Considering how often men rape, and especially how often it occurs in relationships– enjoying control over you, even if its just “pretend,” is a huge red flag.”

    Exactly. You hit the nail on the head with:

    “Kids don’t play pretend to imagine something they wouldn’t actually enjoy, or be someone they don’t like.”

    One pro-BDSM commenter actually tried to argue about this. “Oh, no, people fantasize about things they’d never do!” Yes, but they WANT to do these things — it stands to reason that otherwise they would not spend their time thinking about doing these things.

    The lengths to which people will go to deny it is staggering. I too say social brainwashing, but oh my, to suggest to some people that it’s not “TOTAL CHOICE OMG BORN THIS WAY” is, you’d think, the worst thing ever.

    Worse than, you know. Raping someone.

    “… why would he like that you enjoy those things? Why would he like you to enjoy being hurt and degraded?”

    Exactly again. Why would someone want to “pretend” to hurt (actually hurt! it actually hurts! that part isn’t pretend!) someone they loved? Wouldn’t they want to, you know, LOVE someone they loved, and see him or her feel happy?

    BDSM is just another way to reinforce women’s supposedly “natural” inferiority. Just another way to say, “Shut up, you know you like it.”

    Well, I don’t, you don’t, a lot of us don’t. So thank you again for writing this article.

  5. well said msc. about the invisiblization of teh menz by the sex-pozzies. yes, yes, yes. fun-feminism happens in a vaccuum. its not responsive to aggregate male behavior. thats why its just complete and utter bullshit. feminism was created as a response to something, its a political commentary for christs sake. now they have made it into a fun (and SEXXXAY!) little club, and INVITED MEN TO JOIN. ugh. its fucking sickening, it really is.

    i only have one quibble though, and its something that i have tried to articulate over at my place so i know its not easily done: about “womens desire” and how its relevant in this rape culture of ours. the short answer, of course, is that ITS NOT relevant, at all, by definition. i think it boils down to: “whatever keeps men out of prison for rape, we will go with that.” so if the woman “enjoys” or “wants” it, yes, lets go with that interpretation of the events! even if the guy would have fucked her anyway, if she said no. even if he went out that night to find a victim to rape, and he was just lucky enough to find one that “said yes.” if the woman DOES say no and he fucks her anyway…also not rape of course. NOTHING IS RAPE, IN A RAPE CULTURE.

    unless and until the rapist goes so far as to invade another mans property rights to a woman he owns. see? women who are loose arent worth as much. so her “saying yes” makes a rape not a rape legally, because legally its all about “consent.” but really, her “saying yes” makes her unrapeable morally, because shes loose, and not a piece of property that another man properly owns.

    anyway, its difficult to get your head around, but it does seem as if its all about the womans perspective. BUT ITS NOT. it cant be, because noone gives a shit about how women feel, particularly about how they feel about sex. its all a ruse, and i think its easier to sort through it when we start there.

  6. Oh my gosh, thank you for finally getting it!
    “Considering how often men rape, and especially how often it occurs in relationships– enjoying control over you, even if its just “pretend,” is a huge red flag. ”

    This. This. This.

  7. Social Worker

    Oh. Wow. Maybe this is the answer to my questions on the other post.

    Thinking.

  8. Hmm lol, I can haz no BDSM ?

  9. People are totally misunderstanding what I’m saying. No, I am not saying it’s rape if you’re honestly willing, with no pressure coming from the other person or surrounding factors-I’m saying the “dom” person is still fucked up for wanting to choke/slap/hit whatever.

    My first sexual experience with my ex was rape. You can’t have consensual sex with someone who has raped you, ever again, because there is always the threat that they will rape you. Everything after that first instance is rape. It’s very similar to Stockholm Syndrome. I would suggest stuff because it was often less violent/hurtful to me than what he wanted me to do, or I would do it to hurt myself. I was trying to appease him so he wouldn’t do the things I hated the most (anal, etc). Of course I said I enjoyed it at the time-he would force me to if I didn’t. I physically reacted and orgasmed, yes, but I felt sick and broken and degraded the whole time, because I DID NOT want it.

    If you ask a battered woman if her relationship makes her happy, she will most likely say YES, and do everything in her power to defend her abuser. This does not mean she isn’t being abused-it’s what victims often have to do to cope.

  10. ” For a woman to “choose” to be tied up and whipped, someone has to do the whipping. For you to fulfill your desire to be hurt, someone has to like hurting you. You like being helpless and feeling like he could do whatever he wants to you, giving up any control. He likes you being helpless, feeling like he could do anything to you, raping you, and he gets off on having total control.”
    YES. THIS.

  11. “Do I blame dominants, masters, tops, and sadists? Hell yes. They get off on pain– specifically, women’s pain. That’s misogyny. They have the mentality of a rapist and abuser. They want control and your submission.”

    I don’t understand- how did you come to the conclusion that all D’s and S’s get off specifically to women’s pain?

    I don’t think you understand enough about the BDSM subculture to make allegations like that. The BDSM dynamic is fluid; every practitioner is partially sadistic and partially masochistic, with no absolutes. Realistically it is impossible to find someone absolutely masochistic or absolutely sadistic. The transition of power between individuals in a BDSM relationship is arbitrary and not based in gender.

    It’s good that you’re connecting BDSM to desire with the child metaphor, but you should also understand that society only curbs desire with its expectations (as in: a boy who desires to be a princess is also socially conditioned to know that such a desire is stigmatized, but this does not negate his desire) and only goes so far to reinforce these expectations- kids can, alternatively, express their desire to be something more socially acceptable than what they truly desire. You, of all people, should understand how one internalizes or displaces feelings of inferiority or deviancy.

    ” The same applies to dominant men and what they “pretend” in the bedroom: if they don’t already have control, they want it.”

    This is also false in the BDSM context. BDSM is a lifestyle, not a life. Practitioners often lead double-lives and create pseudonyms/personas in their social circles quite different from who they are in reality. There is a distinct separation between the sexual fantasy and the desexualized reality in BDSM culture. The performance of BDSM, whether sadistic or masochistic, is not an internalization of oppression (or externalization), but a form of subversion rather than reification of the power dynamic.

    I’d like to ask: what if the couple in question is a butch-femme couple? You talk a lot about relationships as if it were heteronormative and gender-exclusive, but what about same-sex couples with gender roles?

    • I don’t understand- how did you come to the conclusion that all D’s and S’s get off specifically to women’s pain?

      The majority of submissives are female and the majority of dominants are male. These are the majority of BDSM relationships; although I know you hate when people notice patterns and address them. (omg men rape more often!!!) Whether or not the person in pain is a woman, it’s still fucked up for someone to get off on pain. It’s also wrong to get off on someone’s subservience.

      The transition of power between individuals in a BDSM relationship is arbitrary and not based in gender.

      Then why are men overrepresented as dominants, and females as submissives? Again we see your stupid “don’t notice any real patternssss!” nonsense, same as when you whined about it being sexist to associate men with rape. Note also that female dominants and male dominants very significantly, in terms of what they wear, how they treat the sub, etc. There’s such a thing as “forced feminization,” for example-which says quite clearly that being female or feminine is taken to be slave-like and degrading.

      It’s good that you’re connecting BDSM to desire with the child metaphor, but you should also understand that society only curbs desire with its expectations

      Yes, but I don’t see how any of this refutes my points. The man is not socially sanctioned to rape (I would argue he is but go with me here), so he acts out his “fantasies” of rape on someone who will “consent” to them. This doesn’t make his desire unproblematic-from what you’re saying, you acknowledge that he still has the desire to rape. His desire to rape is the problem. He should not want it in the first place.

      There is a distinct separation between the sexual fantasy and the desexualized reality in BDSM culture.

      You can’t have sex in a vacuum. Sex involves more than one person, and thus is a social action. (Even actions by a single person are influenced by society, of course) Social actions are influenced by society and the meanings, symbols, and dynamics therein. It’s not a “fantasy”-people are really whipped, cut, beaten, and fucked in BDSM. Just because they lead double-lives does not mean one is “false”-they’re still living it, no? Normal life is reality, just as life in BDSM is. Reality is never desexualized, for that matter. The split is entirely in the imagination of BDSM culture, created to rationalize things for themselves and potential critics-it doesn’t exist.

      The performance of BDSM, whether sadistic or masochistic, is not an internalization of oppression (or externalization), but a form of subversion rather than reification of the power dynamic.

      How is it subversive? Whenever people say this, they never explain WHY it’s rebellious-but I can easily explain why it’s status quo to the nth degree. Female masochism can never be subversive, because its taught to us from day one and is an essential part of our gender role. See wifehood and motherhood, where we’re expected to be “slaves” to the desires of the male or the child. Hell, we’re supposed to submit and take care of others, forgoing ourselves, in general.

      I’d like to ask: what if the couple in question is a butch-femme couple? You talk a lot about relationships as if it were heteronormative and gender-exclusive, but what about same-sex couples with gender roles?

      I aim to critique the majority, obviously. And the majority is heterosexual. I hate “butch” and “femme” as ideals-I see it as simply exercising the same heterosexual dynamic when it doesn’t need to happen, simply because we don’t know anything else. It’s a problem to me, and I hate it. Gender roles are never a good thing.

      • “The majority of submissives are female and the majority of dominants are male. These are the majority of BDSM relationships; although I know you hate when people notice patterns and address them. (omg men rape more often!!!) Whether or not the person in pain is a woman, it’s still fucked up for someone to get off on pain. It’s also wrong to get off on someone’s subservience.”

        Strange. I dug up a few statistical references for BDSM practitioners, and they say nothing about the genders of submissives or dominants. Like I said, you paint the sadomasochistic dichotomy as static, while it is shown that BDSM practitioners switch roles, or at least are capable of switching roles. You generalize that males are portrayed as dom’s when there is no reasonable evidence to corroborate your claims. I for one don’t see painplay and domination/submission as detrimental in the BDSM context.

        “Then why are men overrepresented as dominants, and females as submissives? Again we see your stupid “don’t notice any real patternssss!” nonsense, same as when you whined about it being sexist to associate men with rape. Note also that female dominants and male dominants very significantly, in terms of what they wear, how they treat the sub, etc. There’s such a thing as “forced feminization,” for example-which says quite clearly that being female or feminine is taken to be slave-like and degrading.”

        I don’t see where you got this notion that men are over-represented as dominants. In fact, nowadays the most common stereotype associated with BDSM is the wealthy, affluent male of political or fiscal importance transformed into the submissive and humiliated sub by his mistress. There are various depictions of this in the media (I can provide sources later), so I would say that is a more prevalent representation.

        Yes, female and male dom’s each have a distinct personality and style. Fetish-wear is a a means to hyper-sexualize or aestheticize aspects of BDSM, and these superficial and internal differences are not drawn from the gender of the dom. Forced-feminization can sometimes be claimed as an off-shoot of transvestism, and is enacted by the wishes of the sub (usually a male)- its use is to depict the feelings of oppression, but it is a very interesting event in that it satirizes the feminine aspects. Forcing a man to wear a brassiere, heels, and stockings is a bit humiliating, no? It’s not a mockery of femininity, but a regression of authority and an inversion of gender roles.

        “Yes, but I don’t see how any of this refutes my points. The man is not socially sanctioned to rape (I would argue he is but go with me here), so he acts out his “fantasies” of rape on someone who will “consent” to them. This doesn’t make his desire unproblematic-from what you’re saying, you acknowledge that he still has the desire to rape. His desire to rape is the problem. He should not want it in the first place.”

        If we’re specifically discussing rape fantasies, it doesn’t change my thoughts on the matter. Desire is not problematic; it dwindles down to self-control. If you can agree that there are such people who, for some unforseen reason, enjoy dissociation, depersonalization, and degradation, then why is it a double standard for those who enjoy dissociating, depersonalizing, and degrading? You don’t validate your opinions; you merely state them as if they were infallible.

        “You can’t have sex in a vacuum. Sex involves more than one person, and thus is a social action. (Even actions by a single person are influenced by society, of course) Social actions are influenced by society and the meanings, symbols, and dynamics therein. It’s not a “fantasy”-people are really whipped, cut, beaten, and fucked in BDSM. Just because they lead double-lives does not mean one is “false”-they’re still living it, no? Normal life is reality, just as life in BDSM is. Reality is never desexualized, for that matter. The split is entirely in the imagination of BDSM culture, created to rationalize things for themselves and potential critics-it doesn’t exist.”

        I’ll have to disagree with this. It is true that our social interactions are partially contextual, but they are also partially consensual and conscious. If it’s your point to say that people are brainwashed to enjoy or take part in BDSM, then you have a lot of explaining to do, as statistical analyses of BDSM practitioners shows diverse personal backgrounds ranging from the working-lower class to the upper class.

        Again, you are picking at straws. When I say fantasy, I mean as a detachment from the societal happenings. BDSM practitioners are only comfortable with their fetishes outside of the public eye- not every sub enjoys to be beaten on a daily basis by whomever. You should understand that the separation of public and private spaces influence one’s social interactions. Why is it any different for BDSM? The split is abstract, but that doesn’t mean it’s nonexistent. There are physiological indicators differentiating between the spaces. But then here’s me trying to tell you that reality is not how you paint it, in particular. How interesting it is to see someone who is unversed in BDSM culture give such a critique on its politics!

        “How is it subversive? Whenever people say this, they never explain WHY it’s rebellious-but I can easily explain why it’s status quo to the nth degree. Female masochism can never be subversive, because its taught to us from day one and is an essential part of our gender role. See wifehood and motherhood, where we’re expected to be “slaves” to the desires of the male or the child. Hell, we’re supposed to submit and take care of others, forgoing ourselves, in general.”

        The subversive element stems from the fact that in the BDSM relationship, it is actually the sub who maintains power, and the sub’s compliance to forego that power for the sake of pleasure. In sexual violence, the victim is placed in a position where he is stripped of power- he has no agency in comparison to the perpetrator, who takes total control. In the BDSM context (examples of painplay, bondage, and rape fantasies), there is a consensual and rational agreement before the fantasy occurs: the dom works under the boundaries explicitly stated by the sub, and ultimately the sub maintains control because he can stop the fantasy at any moment. Also, the BDSM relationship is contradictingly founded on selflessness as both dom and sub focus on appeasing one another as opposed to appeasing their own desires. Strangely enough (as you will see in the statistical sources), men often care more about their partner’s desires than women do.

        And as stated before, you can’t correlate between female masochism and notions of wifehood/motherhood if you haven’t the evidence to back it up.

        And here are the statistics on BDSM Practitioners dated 2009 and 1999, respectively:
        http://www.informedconsent.co.uk/posts/225525/

        http://gloria-brame.com/therapy/bdsmsurveyresults.html

        And here is also an interesting dissertation that will bring light to your qualms about consent in sex:
        http://www.sexscience.org/uploads/media/Peterson.pdf

        “I aim to critique the majority, obviously. And the majority is heterosexual. I hate “butch” and “femme” as ideals-I see it as simply exercising the same heterosexual dynamic when it doesn’t need to happen, simply because we don’t know anything else. It’s a problem to me, and I hate it. Gender roles are never a good thing.”

        That’s too bad, then.

  12. Yes, the compartmentalization aspect of it is really creepy isn’t it? Who do these people think they are? Double agents? Give me a break. Someone who acts one way half the time, isnt two people. A man who is an abusive drunk, for example, is an ABUSIVE MAN, Hello! He’s one person, not two, and he’s no jekyl and freaking Hyde either. He’s an abuser who victimizes people regularly, while still managing to keep a job and a social life or something. As if thats evidence of being a good person, who doesn’t hurt others. Wtf?

  13. not a direct reply because I hate comment nesting after a while:

    And really, what is with the assumption I’ve never read about BDSM or even *gasp* DONE it before? I have, extensively. My ex was heavily into BDSM, edgeplay, rape “fantasies,” breathplay, spanking, you name it. Just because I disagree with the rationalizations of BDSM practitioners and analyze their bullshit “hobby” differently doesn’t mean I don’t “understand” or that I’ve never done it. I’ve been there, done that. So stop acting like you know more than me.

    Yes, female and male dom’s each have a distinct personality and style. Fetish-wear is a a means to hyper-sexualize or aestheticize aspects of BDSM, and these superficial and internal differences are not drawn from the gender of the dom.

    Then why are they different, if it has nothing to do with gender? Why don’t male doms wear heels? Why don’t female doms call the sub slut, bitch, cunt, whore, as often as male doms do?

    Forced-feminization can sometimes be claimed as an off-shoot of transvestism, and is enacted by the wishes of the sub (usually a male)- its use is to depict the feelings of oppression, but it is a very interesting event in that it satirizes the feminine aspects. Forcing a man to wear a brassiere, heels, and stockings is a bit humiliating, no? It’s not a mockery of femininity, but a regression of authority and an inversion of gender roles.

    Gee, maybe because those things are seen as FEMALE, and thus it’s considered degrading to wear them. Yes, heels and shit is usually enacted due to a male sub-for a female sub, it’s a given. My point is that the man would not see it as “degrading” if he didn’t see femaleness as degrading. It’s an inversion of gender roles because the male is not “supposed” to be submissive. You’re proving my point, that femininity/women are associated with submissiveness.

    When I say fantasy, I mean as a detachment from the societal happenings. BDSM practitioners are only comfortable with their fetishes outside of the public eye- not every sub enjoys to be beaten on a daily basis by whomever. You should understand that the separation of public and private spaces influence one’s social interactions.

    You know what else typically only happens in private spaces? Rape. You know what else most men are only comfortable doing in private? Beating women. Abusing women.

    If we’re specifically discussing rape fantasies, it doesn’t change my thoughts on the matter. Desire is not problematic; it dwindles down to self-control. If you can agree that there are such people who, for some unforseen reason, enjoy dissociation, depersonalization, and degradation, then why is it a double standard for those who enjoy dissociating, depersonalizing, and degrading? You don’t validate your opinions; you merely state them as if they were infallible.

    Wow. Really? I have to explain this? It’s a moral judgement, yes. Lemme see: it’s bad to RAPE someone, but it’s not bad TO BE raped. Follow? Simillarly, it’s wrong to WANT to rape someone, but its not bad to “want” to be raped. It’s wrong to want to hurt someone, it’s not bad to want to be hurt. One involves thinking about harming someone-it requires someone to be hurt. The other involves thinking about harming oneself, and hurts no one else. There’s a big difference there. Desire IS problematic, because desire is required for rape to happen-you can’t accidentally rape someone. You have to WANT to force them to do stuff they don’t.

    And really…you know that dissociation and depersonalization are what people do to cope with rape and sexual trauma, right? And you’re saying the same things happen in BDSM? Um, that kinda says a lot in itself.

    And as stated before, you can’t correlate between female masochism and notions of wifehood/motherhood if you haven’t the evidence to back it up.

    Why don’t you cite evidence on how bdsm praticioners separate “reality” from “fantasy” then? How about proof that men who fantasize about raping women don’t actually rape women? This is a theoretical debate, ffs-ther isn’t evidence for everything. If you want evidence of female masochism, look at how much energy women spend taking care of men. They do more housework, they take care of elderly relatives, they take care of the child, they attempt to teach feminism to complete morons, they’re disproportionately represented in “caretaking” profession, such as teaching, nursing, etc.
    BTw, none of those statistics you cite say ANYTHING about the distribution of dom/sub across genders.

    And oh wait, I found something: http://bdsm.sexresearch.org/SSSS/PDFs/SSSS_2002_B_McG_Jacques.pdf

    Lookee there, more men are strictly dominant: 78.6 % of women are always and usually submissive, whlie only 35% of men are. Only 21.4% of women are always and usually dominant or switch equally, while 65% of men are. GEE WHAT AS SURPRISE.

    Also interesting is that fewer than 10% of people in BDSM have a high school education or less. And fewer than 7% are nonwhite. Fuckin’ white people.

    The subversive element stems from the fact that in the BDSM relationship, it is actually the sub who maintains power, and the sub’s compliance to forego that power for the sake of pleasure. In sexual violence, the victim is placed in a position where he is stripped of power- he has no agency in comparison to the perpetrator, who takes total control. In the BDSM context (examples of painplay, bondage, and rape fantasies), there is a consensual and rational agreement before the fantasy occurs: the dom works under the boundaries explicitly stated by the sub, and ultimately the sub maintains control because he can stop the fantasy at any moment.

    I call bullshit. The sub can stop the “fantasy” at any moment ONLY if the dom complies. Yet again, this isn’t about the sub or their desires-this is about the dom, stop shifting the focus. The dom has complete control at all times, just as a perp does. The dom knows the sub couldn’t stop him. The only thing between “consensual” bondage and rape is the dom’s whim. That’s the “control” aspect that he’s getting off on. It’s fucked up to want that sort of power over someone, period. WHY does the dom enjoy the sub giving up power?

    Strangely enough (as you will see in the statistical sources), men often care more about their partner’s desires than women do.

    Gee, maybe because they want their partner to get off on being hurt so they don’t feel bad about hurting them. Of course they “care” more often-they’re typically the ones HITTING and HURTING. They also don’t want to get arrested. Why would anyone want someone to enjoy being degraded?

  14. “And really, what is with the assumption I’ve never read about BDSM or even *gasp* DONE it before? I have, extensively. My ex was heavily into BDSM, edgeplay, rape “fantasies,” breathplay, spanking, you name it. Just because I disagree with the rationalizations of BDSM practitioners and analyze their bullshit “hobby” differently doesn’t mean I don’t “understand” or that I’ve never done it. I’ve been there, done that. So stop acting like you know more than me.”

    You have had one sexual partner who practiced aspects of BDSM, of which the same sexual partner also raped you and coerced you into participating BDSM. Most of, if not all of your opinions on BDSM are closely tied to your experiences with said ex. You have never been to an S&M club or interacted with BDSM circles. So yes, from my standpoint, you don’t know as much as I do.

    “Then why are they different, if it has nothing to do with gender? Why don’t male doms wear heels? Why don’t female doms call the sub slut, bitch, cunt, whore, as often as male doms do?”

    Do you want a more elaborate answer than preference? Must every action have an implied meaning and rationale behind it?

    “Gee, maybe because those things are seen as FEMALE, and thus it’s considered degrading to wear them. Yes, heels and shit is usually enacted due to a male sub-for a female sub, it’s a given. My point is that the man would not see it as “degrading” if he didn’t see femaleness as degrading. It’s an inversion of gender roles because the male is not “supposed” to be submissive. You’re proving my point, that femininity/women are associated with submissiveness.”

    Again, you’re pulling at straws to make ends meet. If it is agreed that there are gender roles set in society, then yes, men with a desire to be humiliated will break said roles to attain their desire. You’re the one saying that femaleness is associated with submissiveness; don’t put words in my mouth. Men think it humiliating to crossdress because they are portraying a gender role unknown to them, think it humiliating to crossdress because they juxtapose their expression of femininity with their ideal, and think it humiliating because they are foregoing control of their gender identity.

    “Wow. Really? I have to explain this? It’s a moral judgement, yes. Lemme see: it’s bad to RAPE someone, but it’s not bad TO BE raped. Follow? Simillarly, it’s wrong to WANT to rape someone, but its not bad to “want” to be raped. It’s wrong to want to hurt someone, it’s not bad to want to be hurt. One involves thinking about harming someone-it requires someone to be hurt. The other involves thinking about harming oneself, and hurts no one else. There’s a big difference there. Desire IS problematic, because desire is required for rape to happen-you can’t accidentally rape someone. You have to WANT to force them to do stuff they don’t.”

    …so if the two meet…everybody is happy? Desire is also required for agency. Desire is also required to permit BDSM encounters. Desire is the catalyst for everything.

    “And really…you know that dissociation and depersonalization are what people do to cope with rape and sexual trauma, right? And you’re saying the same things happen in BDSM? Um, that kinda says a lot in itself.”

    DXM and ketamine also cause people to dissociate. The Bystander Effect and PTSD also cause depersonalization in people. Am I doing this right?

    “Lookee there, more men are strictly dominant: 78.6 % of women are always and usually submissive, whlie only 35% of men are. Only 21.4% of women are always and usually dominant or switch equally, while 65% of men are. GEE WHAT AS SURPRISE.”

    Are you taking into account the percentage of men who switch equally compared to the number of men who are usually dominant? Why must you always jump to conclusions?

    “I call bullshit. The sub can stop the “fantasy” at any moment ONLY if the dom complies. Yet again, this isn’t about the sub or their desires-this is about the dom, stop shifting the focus. The dom has complete control at all times, just as a perp does. The dom knows the sub couldn’t stop him. The only thing between “consensual” bondage and rape is the dom’s whim. That’s the “control” aspect that he’s getting off on. It’s fucked up to want that sort of power over someone, period. WHY does the dom enjoy the sub giving up power?”

    Again, you’re simplifying the politics of BDSM. Does a masochist enjoy pain regardless of the context in which that pain is administered? Does a submissive enjoy control regardless of the context in which control is administered? The answer to both questions is no. Why would a dominant or sadist be any different? The dom is only permitted control for the duration of the fantasy by the sub. Stop permeating your experiences over the discussion.

    “Gee, maybe because they want their partner to get off on being hurt so they don’t feel bad about hurting them. Of course they “care” more often-they’re typically the ones HITTING and HURTING. They also don’t want to get arrested. Why would anyone want someone to enjoy being degraded?”

    Is this supposed to be a joke? This only reinforces the opinion that you know nothing about BDSM culture.

    “Why don’t you cite evidence on how bdsm praticioners separate “reality” from “fantasy” then? How about proof that men who fantasize about raping women don’t actually rape women? This is a theoretical debate, ffs-ther isn’t evidence for everything. If you want evidence of female [b]masochism[/b], look at how much energy women spend taking care of men. They do more housework, they take care of elderly relatives, they take care of the child, they [b]attempt to teach feminism to complete morons[/b], they’re disproportionately represented in “caretaking” profession, such as teaching, nursing, etc.
    BTw, none of those statistics you cite say ANYTHING about the distribution of dom/sub across genders.”
    Sure. A look into a BDSM wordpress/community may help shed light on your inquiry:
    http://sm-feminist.blogspot.com/2007/11/wut-about-abuuuuuuuuuuzers.html

    A developing trend in the BDSM subculture is the integration of the hyperreal- as in, usage of telecommunication and technology to produce a hyperreal mode for BDSM practitioners to act out their fantasies, the most popular of which is known as SecondLife. This would be about as obvious an example for the separation of the fantasy and reality that I can think of.

    Yes, because as I said, dom/sub is not a static title; all BDSM practitioners are doms and subs. Even your statistics assume that you understand this rudimentary knowledge- which you don’t, or refuse to.

    I guess you’re just about done here.

    • You have had one sexual partner who practiced aspects of BDSM, of which the same sexual partner also raped you and coerced you into participating BDSM. Most of, if not all of your opinions on BDSM are closely tied to your experiences with said ex. You have never been to an S&M club or interacted with BDSM circles. So yes, from my standpoint, you don’t know as much as I do.

      Oh great, here we go: You had a bad experience, therefore you are *biased*. People with good experiences, however, are not biased-they speak the truth. Btw, I’ve known several people who were “into” BDSM, and my other ex also did BDSM shit with me (tho much more “mild”). I’ve read a bazillion defenses of BDSM, from doms and subs and switches or whatever. I’ve been on BDSM sites since before I was “sexually active,” reading the unwritten rules and nonsense like that. But either way, good job erasing my lived experience!!11

      You’re the one saying that femaleness is associated with submissiveness; don’t put words in my mouth. Men think it humiliating to crossdress because they are portraying a gender role unknown to them, think it humiliating to crossdress because they juxtapose their expression of femininity with their ideal, and think it humiliating because they are foregoing control of their gender identity.

      If it were the portraying of a gender role unknown to them that was the humiliating part, it would only make sense for female subs to dress as stereotypical males then. But wait, that DOESNT HAPPEN. Female subs wear almost always wear heels, lingerie, etc. Because feminine is equivalent to submissive. Men who do this are called “sissies,” for fucks sake. Which is a classic way of telling a man he’s a wimp, because he’s FEMININE. You’re trying so heard to make it look like BDSM doesn’t think women are submissive.

      Do you want a more elaborate answer than preference? Must every action have an implied meaning and rationale behind it?

      Why is this a preference is the question. Yes actions have meanings-words have meaning too. You can’t just ignore how BDSM is gendered, and unsurprsingly the best explanation of why it’s gendered the way it is involves looking a our patriarchal society.

      …so if the two meet…everybody is happy? Desire is also required for agency. Desire is also required to permit BDSM encounters. Desire is the catalyst for everything.

      No, not everyone is happy. You’re still focusing on the sub and their “consent.” Why does someone get off on causing pain? Why does someone desire to cause pain? If subs didn’t exist, would doms desire to hurt still exist? Probably. And as I said, this oh-so-special desire is the catalyst for rape too! Desire is not sacred or universally good. Desire can be fucked up.

      Again, you’re simplifying the politics of BDSM. Does a masochist enjoy pain regardless of the context in which that pain is administered? Does a submissive enjoy control regardless of the context in which control is administered? The answer to both questions is no. Why would a dominant or sadist be any different?

      Are you UNABLE to keep the focus on the dom? Seriously? Of course the sub doesn’t enjoy pain regardless of the context, I get that. Doms say they only enjoy it because the sub “wants it”-all we have is their word. And further, there are often role plays of rape. The dom enjoys fucking someone who’s saying no, who’s not consenting, who’s struggling and attempting to get away. Why do they enjoy fucking someone or hitting someone who seemingly doesn’t enjoy it? Because they get off on seeing rape.

      And as to “well they only like it because the sub likes it.” Subs rarely say, oh I only like it because the dom likes it. They write whole fucking novels on why it’s so awesome to get off on being hurt-yet, doms are relatively silent about their desires, and just point at the sub and say it’s because of them. Even if they ARE telling the truth, it’s still fucked up to want your partner to ENJOY pain-I can’t think of anything more patriarchal than that.

      That stupid link you gave doesn’t prove shit-the only person who would KNOW of someone being abusive if their partner, because of how rape happens. It also doesn’t say anything about why doms get off on this shit or why its ok, which is my entire problem with BDSM. Did I ever say “oh noez some people misuse bdsm”? No, I fucking didn’t. I’m saying getting off on people’s pain-whether or not they “consent” to be in pain-is wrong.

      The dom is only permitted control for the duration of the fantasy by the sub. Stop permeating your experiences over the discussion

      The dom is not “permitted” control, stop obscuring things. They HAVE the control-the sub cannot stop the scene by themself. They are dependent on the dom’s good will. Even if the sub “initiates” it, the dom has control from the point the scene starts. The only person keeping the dom in check is…the dom, big surprise. Wanting that kind of control is not good. Again, why does the dom enjoy the sub giving up power?

      Yes, because as I said, dom/sub is not a static title; all BDSM practitioners are doms and subs. Even your statistics assume that you understand this rudimentary knowledge- which you don’t, or refuse to.

      For fucks sake-I never said the roles are static all the time, did I? You’re making shit up so you can whine about how I just don’t “understand” BDSM. My point is, that women are disproportionately always/usually sub, and men are disproportionately always/usually dom. Note that even with adding the women who usually dom and the switches together, you still only get 21.4%. Hell, the gap between men and women in always/usually sub is HUGE-a 43.6% difference. It doesn’t separate switches from always/usually doms, but you can’t be saying that the whole 65% is switches. The significant thing is that more men are in that catagory, and that women are almost always submissive. You can’t ignore that, and it’s not jumping to conclusions.

      And yes, I am just about done here, because once I make a point you can’t refute you just say WHY ANALYZE SO MUCH DURPDURP. You call someone who has a bad experience with something biased, which is manipulative as hell.

    • You have had one sexual partner who practiced aspects of BDSM, of which the same sexual partner also raped you and coerced you into participating BDSM. Most of, if not all of your opinions on BDSM are closely tied to your experiences with said ex. You have never been to an S&M club or interacted with BDSM circles. So yes, from my standpoint, you don’t know as much as I do.

      Okay, so what about me then? I’ve worked in a nightclub for some several years now, that has had several fetish balls. We have had a few incidents where a dom was not willing to listen to a sub’s safeword/gesture. This has happened at every fetish ball I have been to, and not just my own workplaces. I have also ‘modelled’ at BDSM balls and seen the same shit happen. The majority of the BDSM’rs there were white, middle class male Dom, female sub. A couple of bears and S&M dykes, but no, 9/10ths of the audiences at these things are white, middle class male Doms and female subs.
      Also, been in several long-term BDSM relationships, guess what else was rife in those relationships? Rape and abuse!

      Do you want a more elaborate answer than preference? Must every action have an implied meaning and rationale behind it?

      Aka, shit, you might have an actual argument, Imma stfu.
      You’re also the one who said the crap about inverting gender roles, which is more or less what Ms.Citrus said about femaleness being associated with submissiveness.

      …so if the two meet…everybody is happy? Desire is also required for agency. Desire is also required to permit BDSM encounters. Desire is the catalyst for everything.

      No, it means that those two are happy and their happiness does not negate the suffering of others. Desire is not required to permit BDSM encounters, see above.

      DXM and ketamine also cause people to dissociate. The Bystander Effect and PTSD also cause depersonalization in people. Am I doing this right?

      Please don’t compare illicit substances to people’s actions. Illicit substances are neither good, nor evil, they have no moral value. Wanting to beat people up and getting off on it, or wanting to beat up and getting off it does have moral value though. Duh.

      Doesn’t second life also sell like, online pixelated torture devices, designed to be arousing ways of murdering and torturing womyn? That’s funny, cos I don’t remember seeing any devices like that for male avatars on second life.

  15. I have noted how antifeminists in these dialogues frequently refer to ‘experiences’ in BDSM etc, and use that same word to describe 1) their own particular jollies and 2) rape and violence suffered by anti-BDSMers. So if you tell them of your own abuse in a BDSM setting, hoping for a shred of understanding and human decency, they refer to that as a bad ‘experience’ and say how it is only *you*. It is a deliberate, calculated attempt to isolate the rape survivor from what she knows through her ‘experience’ and from other survivors. If it’s just your ‘bad experience’ then you cannot use it to draw conclusions about BDSM – or so goes the ‘logic.’ Every single woman abused in the name of the BDSM cult becomes a single individual with a single ‘experience’ – not a human being entitled to locate the source of her oppression and degradation.

  16. Using phrases like “gender identity” isn’t going to get you any where on a radical feminist blog, dude.

    This is also false in the BDSM context. BDSM is a lifestyle, not a life. Practitioners often lead double-lives and create pseudonyms/personas in their social circles quite different from who they are in reality

    Oh I’m sorry, I didn’t realise that all of these things happened only in peoples heads and therefore not in reality. Oh wait, they do. And you’re an idiot.

    but a form of subversion rather than reification of the power dynamic.

    How can one be participating in something that is main stream + status quo and be subverting it? Oh right, because you can’t.

    I’d like to ask: what if the couple in question is a butch-femme couple? You talk a lot about relationships as if it were heteronormative and gender-exclusive, but what about same-sex couples with gender roles?

    Dynamics are still the same, doesn’t make a fuckin’ difference.

    Forced-feminization can sometimes be claimed as an off-shoot of transvestism, and is enacted by the wishes of the sub (usually a male)- its use is to depict the feelings of oppression, but it is a very interesting event in that it satirizes the feminine aspects. Forcing a man to wear a brassiere, heels, and stockings is a bit humiliating, no? It’s not a mockery of femininity, but a regression of authority and an inversion of gender roles.

    Again, how can replication lead to subversion? It can’t and it doesn’t. Why do you think it’s humiliating for a man to wear these things? Because it’s humiliating to womyn as well. Oh, and inversion of gender roles? Puh-lease, because once their happy little “scene” is over, they will go back to man is X and womon is Y. No inversion there.

    If we’re specifically discussing rape fantasies, it doesn’t change my thoughts on the matter. Desire is not problematic; it dwindles down to self-control. If you can agree that there are such people who, for some unforseen reason, enjoy dissociation, depersonalization, and degradation, then why is it a double standard for those who enjoy dissociating, depersonalizing, and degrading? You don’t validate your opinions; you merely state them as if they were infallible.

    Dude, you can’t fantasies about being raped. You’re actively participating in a fantasy where you’re not actively participating, you’re still an active participant. Oh, and fantasising about raping someone is fucked up, no matter how you fuckin’ look at it.

    BDSM practitioners are only comfortable with their fetishes outside of the public eye- not every sub enjoys to be beaten on a daily basis by whomever. You should understand that the separation of public and private spaces influence one’s social interactions. Why is it any different for BDSM? The split is abstract, but that doesn’t mean it’s nonexistent. There are physiological indicators differentiating between the spaces. But then here’s me trying to tell you that reality is not how you paint it, in particular. How interesting it is to see someone who is unversed in BDSM culture give such a critique on its politics!

    What about all the BDSMrs who get off on shit like “Public Humiliation”? Repeat after me, the political is personal, the personal is political. BTW, I am verse in BDSM culture, just FYI.

    The subversive element stems from the fact that in the BDSM relationship, it is actually the sub who maintains power, and the sub’s compliance to forego that power for the sake of pleasure.

    Dude, talk about perpertrator mentality. As ms.citrus mentioned, sub only has power as long as a dom wants them too. A safe word or gesture is all well and good, as long as the top wants to listen/recognise it. And a lot of the time, they don’t.

    In sexual violence, the victim is placed in a position where he is stripped of power- he has no agency in comparison to the perpetrator, who takes total control.

    That’s interesting that you’ve chosen the term “he”for sexual violence, seeing as the vast majority of it is men assaulting womyn, plain and simple. I’m not saying that sexual violence on males is acceptable, I’m saying it happens so much less often than male sexual violence on womyn that it’s fairly safe to consider it an anomaly and therefore, you are de-railing.

    Strangely enough (as you will see in the statistical sources), men often care more about their partner’s desires than women do.

    Because it panders to their egos. And womyn are taught from day one that their desires are always secondary to someone elses, especially if that someone is a man.

  17. Again, you’re pulling at straws to make ends meet. If it is agreed that there are gender roles set in society, then yes, men with a desire to be humiliated will break said roles to attain their desire. You’re the one saying that femaleness is associated with submissiveness; don’t put words in my mouth. Men think it humiliating to crossdress because they are portraying a gender role unknown to them, think it humiliating to crossdress because they juxtapose their expression of femininity with their ideal, and think it humiliating because they are foregoing control of their gender identity.

    Oh, what a load of crap.

    You know, I was going to explain why you are talking out of your ass here, but then I realized – I dont have to!

    Here is a sex-positive bdsm practitioner (ie. one of your people) who explains why forced-feminization being equated with male submission in bdsm-land is misogynist, and nothing more.

    http://bitchyjones.wordpress.com/2007/04/21/surrender-dorothy/

    And because clicking and reading something is hard, here’s a quote –


    1. Forced feminisation is misogynistic and must be stopped

    One of the key pillars of femdom. The sissy maid. The panty boy. The guy who is humiliated by being ‘forced’ to cross dress. Take a man down with a degrading downgrade to woman

    Just tell me how this isn’t insulting to women. Just tell me how any kind of happy fun sex for women is going to arise in a context where the first thing the guy wants is to be degraded by being made more like her. (And perhaps also called a ‘slut’, because then he’s like, a woman who likes sex and likes getting fucked and what could be more degrading than that…? Gee, I don’t know, perhaps being an actual woman and having your actual sexuality represented by this kind of anti-sex, anti-women, anti-women-having-recreational-sex CRAP?)

    See, even sex-pozzies can see through this bullshit (some of them anyway).

  18. second time around

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